Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

Armed Texan stops rapist

Anyone who argues concealed carry, and armed citizens are not a blessing should really do some research and educate themselves, and stop listening to idiots like this buffoonwho would have disarmed the man who shout the Sotherland Springs maniac

Good Freaking Grief! The man ran from his home after hearing shooting with his rifle and prevented the killer from committing God knows how much more carnage, And as Tom Knighton points out, the very weapon Biden says should be illegal was the right tool for stopping the killer

If the gunman was wearing body armor, as the reports have indicated, it’s unlikely that a pistol shot would have been enough to stop him.

A bolt-action rifle might have, but in the event of a miss, the reload time could have been fatal.

No, the situation called for a semi-automatic rifle with a good round capacity, and that’s what hero Stephen Willeford had. He had it and he used it to save who knows how many lives.

Meanwhile, Biden’s anti-gun bias is as clear now as it ever was. The man who thinks you should just shoot through the door with a shotgunalso thinks no one should have a modern sporting rifle.

Biden admits that bad people will get their hands on weapons, yet he wants to disarm god people? Crazy Uncle Joe is at it again

Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

Barber shop owner shoots, kills man who attacked, stabbed him

MIAMI – Serban Beriguete, the owner of the Cooperstown Barber Shop in Miami’s Allapattah neighborhood, was recovering Friday at Jackson Memorial Hospital after he was stabbed at his business.

Relatives said Beriguete, 44, pulled out a gun and fatally shot the man he said attacked him about 11 a.m. Thursday.

Jennefer Beriguete said witnesses told her that an angry former client stormed into the barber shop and stabbed her father.

“My dad defended himself by shooting him,” she said. “The guy had come in. He had a switchblade or a razor in his pocket when he came in.”

But, as the Cult of Gun Control tell us no one ever uses a gun in self-defense, right?

Yes, churches are targets that is just reality

In a perfect world, wait, w do not live in a perfect world. We live in reality, and the reality is this. Terrorists, psychos seeking fame, and evil people, are predators, and predators seek easy, or soft targets. Churches, schools, and any gun-free zone are such targets. No amount of hand-wringing will change that. Some churches are waking up to this reality

 It’s a love of faith with a twist of fire.

“The scriptures make it clear that Jesus has issued a very quotable directive that we are to arm ourselves with the tools and machinery of lethal force,” said Geoff Peabody.

Peabody teaches gun safety courses free of charge to local church members, from ministers to their security teams. But the deadly mass shooting at a Texas church that claimed 26 lives is sparking interest from religious leaders across the country packing heat to protect their congregation.

“Ministries in the faith community are getting their head out of the sand and trying to get a clue that we are actually our brother’s keeper,” he said.

We first met his students after the South Carolina Church shooting that killed nine members of a bible study group. He’s since trained close to 1,000 people. Deacon Bruce Shoff is one of them. He’s qualified to carry a concealed weapon and he does so in church, quietly.

“We really don’t talk about it. We talk about it with the safety team,” he said.

He’s also a coach at the range.

“God has given us the brains, the tools — hopefully common sense that if it came down to it, we have to step in between an evil person and somebody else. He’s given us that perfect timing to be there at that place,” he said, referring to the Texas man no being hailed a hero for chasing the church gunman after the killings. Officials say the man wounded the suspect twice. The gunman died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

The fact is evil people exist, no, you are never likely to be a victim of one of them, but there is no replacement for awareness, preparation, and the tools to defend yourself and others. Your right to self-defense is the most basic natural right to me. Why should anyone expect you to surrender that right when you attend church? More importantly, surrendering that right will never deter an evil person from committing an evil act. Rather it will encourage it.

Tom Knighton has some thoughts at Bearing Arms

The church was in Antioch, Tennessee. That’s where an armed man decided to kill everyone he could at the church.

How did it get lost amid two mass shootings and a terrorist attack in the six weeks since then?

There are two simple reasons, the first was a good guy with a gun in a position to stop the attack far sooner.

A man by the name of Caleb Engle was able to get to his gun and put a stop to the attack. As a result, he wasn’t able to kill as many people as the Sutherland Springs killer, not by any stretch of the imagination.

And, this is not the only example Tom gives

We see that a quick, armed response is the best way to minimize the loss of life. Even if the armed citizen ultimately falls, he or she can provide valuable moments for others to escape and ultimately save lives, but we also see that an armed citizen can outright stop the fight. That’s what happened in Antioch, TN. That’s what happened when Jeanne Assam pulled her privately owned weapon on a shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs back in 2007.

Two church shootings just six weeks apart, and we see a very different outcome. Anyone still believe that guns don’t save lives?

Again, self-defense is a God-given right, yes, even in a church

Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

Look Out for Little Brother

That’s exactly what happened in West Virginia recently when three criminals attacked one man, only to find out his younger brother was there and armed.

Logan Police tell WSAZ three people tried to break into a home and two of them were shot by the homeowner.

The two injured suffered non life-threatening injuries and were released from the hospital to the Southwestern Regional Jail, according to investigators.

The alleged break-in and shooting happened in the early hours of Saturday morning on Pine Street, according to police.

Hakeem Norman, Cody Tomblin and Kareem Wyche have all been arrested and charged in the crime. Norman and Tomblin were shot during the alleged break-in.

They are all charged with nighttime burglary, unlawful assault and conspiracy.

Norman has also reportedly been charged with malicious wounding.

Having a gun in the house isn’t an immunization against evil acts, but it sure can help. It’s unlikely that the younger brother, Adam Jones, would have been much help against three men without the gun. It sounds like Jones understands that perfectly well.

“I couldn’t yell, I couldn’t get my hands on anything,” the victim told WSAZ-TV. “Yeah, I pretty much thought I was dead.”

But the attackers were about get some serious pushback — from the victim’s younger brother.

Adam Jones came downstairs armed with a gun of his own and “just opened fire,” he told the station.

Jones said he fired a warning shot over the head of one of the crooks, wounded two of them — and all three hightailed it out of the house.

“There’s a chance they could have killed both of us,” Adam Jones recalled to WSAZ.

Yes, they could have.

Stories like these, of course, seldom if ever make CNN, CBS, ABC, or NBC news and MSNBS would never ever allow such a story to run. And sadly “Conservative” Fox News never runs these stories either do they? Yes, Fox sucks too, they just suck a lot less.

Gun Myths anyone?

No, no, not the myths spread by the members of The Cult of Gun Control, but myths spread by people who are just a tad ignorant about firearms. Tom Knighton of Bearing Arms has his top five here Here is a sampling

1. You Don’t Have To Aim A Shotgun

We’ll start with this one because it’s a classic.

The idea is simple. The argument is that a shotgun with a barrel only slightly above legal length will, when fired, put out such a wide swath of hate and shot that aiming the weapon becomes pointless. This is why people like to recommend shotguns to people who want something for home defense, but don’t really want to practice with it.

While the shot does spread out a bit, it’s not nearly as much as some people would like to think. A shotgun can be a little more forgiving in the aiming department than a handgun or a carbine, but you still have to have the gun pointed in the right spot, otherwise, you’re going to miss. There’s no way around that one.

It also matters what type of shotgun shell you are using. Birdshot ain’t double oo buck, birdshot will spread more quickly and do less damage so aiming is crucial, if you had to defend yourself with a shotgun. And no I would never load my home defense shotgun with birdshot.

Buckshot is a load for deer hunting, thus the “buckshot” , and there are different types of buckshot. Some designed for home defense. It is devastating and for in the home defense, is a great option

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Then there are slugs which I have right now in my home defense shotgun. A slug, is, well a rifled slug. This particular shell has three 00 buck pellets 

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The slug is a shell that will penetrate and do tremendous damage. It also will continue to travel, right through a violent intruder, and a wall, and so on. And remember you are RESPONSIBLE for every bullet/shell you fire. So slugs might not be your best option

 You can get an idea of how different gauges spread here

Here is another video comparing the differences

In other words you DO, most certainly need to aim a shotgun. Knighton has some other good myths go read them all. 

So, you might wonder what my favorite myth about firearms is. Well, mine centers around home defense. You have heard people say that they will, chase an intruder outside. I always ask myself, are they stupid?. The very last thing I ever wish to do is to fire a weapon or swing a bat, or use a knife in self-defense or in defense of y family. I believe self-defense is the most basic human right, no doubt, but it is one I pray never to have to exercise.

That being said, If I ever have to confront an intruder, and they, upon seeing an armed homeowner decide to run away, I am not giving chase. Inside my home, I have advantages. Advantages such as having a room where my sister can hide y niece and herself. Advantages such as a room where I can cover safely hide myself and cover the sole entrance behind cover, while I wait for the police. If that intruder chooses to break that door down, the advantage is all mine. Why the Hell would I leave that home, go out into a dark yard where those advantages go away? Why would I try to be  a “badass” and go running after the guy or guys who just ran away? Why would I go out armed knowing the police have been called? When they show up, they do not know me, or that I am a guy defending myself. To them, I am a guy with a gun at or near a home that just called 911 from. The police are not psychic folks.

What is the saying you “shoot to stop the threat”? Well the threat ended when the intruder fled. At that point my option to shoot to stop a threat ended. The cops can pursue them, that is their job. My duty is to protect my family and myself. It is a duty that is sacred and one I will perform to the best of my ability. But, again, that duty ends when the threat does.

So, what are the gun myths that drive you nuts?

Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

From right here in Dallas

The homeowner said the man first rang his doorbell around 5 a.m. He apologized for being at the wrong home and left.

A few minutes later the man came back, kicked in the door and forced his way inside. But the homeowner had a gun and opened fire, police said.

Neighbors said they heard about a half a dozen shots. When responding officers arrived they found the wounded suspect in the street. The suspect was taken to the hospital in critical condition. He is expected to survive, police said.

Wrong house! 

Seems the Cult of Gun Control hates due process too

Via Bearing Arms

The National Rifle Association is reportedly being investigated by New York regulators. No, it’s not that the state has finally figured out a way to undermine the organization’s strong Second Amendment stance or its effectiveness throughout the nation in blocking infringements on our right to keep and bear arms. No, it’s something far more insidious.

They’re concerned the NRA is selling their Carry Guard insurance without a license.

New York regulators launched an investigation into the National Rifle Association’s role in the self-defense insurance program that bears its name.

The probe by the state’s Department of Financial Services will focus on whether the gun lobby is improperly promoting the policy and receiving commissions without a proper license, The Wall Street Journal reported.

The NRA released NRA Carry Guard insurance at its annual conference in April. The program — underwritten by Chubb Ltd and administered by Lockton Cos — offers policies to cover legal fees for patrons who claim self defense after a shooting. Lockton told the Associated Press that they’re cooperating with investigators.

The New York department launched the probe a week after advocacy groups Guns Down and Color of Change launched a campaign, dubbed “Stop Murder Insurance,” to pressure Chubb and Lockton to drop NRA’s business.

Oh the propaganda flows freely from these Leftists doesn’t it? Murder insurance? Stop it! It seems these agitators wish for gun owners to be stripped of their rights to a fair trial. Of course, they do. This is a war on self-defense, not a campaign for “justice” Take this video from the Guns Down for example. If you have ever wondered how many lies you can fit into a video less which runs than 1:30, see for yourself.

This woman piles lie son top of lies, all while video clips of White supremacists play in the background. If you are wondering what that trash has to do with the NRA, or people who carry guns, the answer is nothing! This is just propaganda meant to smear gun owners and people who dare defend themselves with firearms. Yes these tactics are despicable, but truth is not valued by the left, not one bit.

The fact is this. If an American uses a firearm in self-defense, this insurance helps greatly with the cost of defending themselves in court if charges are brought. That is it. So, why does the left hate Americans right to a fair trial, to legal representation? Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The social justice warriors ain’t got time for that!

Liberal changes his mind about gun control

At least to some extent anyway, this is encouraging

Ahh, good news

Ken Stern, the former CEO of NPR, acknowledged recently what many of us already know. Gun control is ineffective.

Stern finally realized this after a trek across America for his new book “Republican Like Me: How I left the Liberal Bubble and Learned to Love the Right.”

During an appearance on “Morning Joe” to promote the book, guest host Willie Guest asked Stern how the trip impacted his stance on the issues.

The former National Public Radio chief mentioned gun control, noting that crime has dropped over the past two decades while gun ownership has spiked.

“The most extraordinary trend in modern American criminal history,” Stern explained. “At the same time, the number of guns have gone up.”

Your Self-Defense Stories of the Day

No one who kicks in a door at midnight has good intentions

A man thought his child’s mother was inside when he banged on the front door and demanded to enter a northeast-side apartment late Thursday.

But it was the wrong address.

When this angry man kicked in the door to that wrong apartment, he paid with his life.

Indianapolis Metropolitan Police said a resident was protecting himself, a woman and two small children who live with him when he fired a gun and killed the intruder.

As Wheelgun notes parents have to protect their children

They weren’t just breaking in; they were breaking into a kids’ room. Homeowner kills burglar trying to break into sleeping kids’ room | KOMO

A homeowner shot and killed a burglar Thursday morning who was trying to break into a room where 2 of his young children were sleeping, the King County Sheriff’s Office says.

I think that parents have a duty to protect their kids.

SO the one would-be bad-guy is dead. The other ran.

“The person absolutely has the right to protect themselves and their family on their own property. Again, it has to be reasonable and they have to feel their life or somebody else’s was threatened with serious bodily harm,” said Sgt. Cindi West, King County Sheriff’s Office.

Of course if these two incidents happened in a country disarmed by the likes of the Cult of Gun Control the endings might very well be tragic. Never forget this, self-defense, which is tied directly and inextricably to the right to own and carry firearms, is the ultimate human right. Those who seek to eradicate that right are seeking an evil end. 

Well, my next gun will not be a H&K product

They make great guns, but they just lost my business

Heckler & Koch make some fine quality firearms. Few people disagree with that statement. However, many of us in the gun community have wondered if they actually give a flying flip about civilian gun owners. A buddy of mine once referred to them as the most anti-gun owner gun company in the world.

I don’t know that I’d go that far, but I will say that for a company that’s wanting a bigger chunk of U.S. market share, the latest move by the company might not be the way to go.

Heckler & Koch, the German weapons manufacturer whose guns are estimated to have killed more than 2 million people since the company was founded in 1949, has quietly adopted the most ethical sales policy of any gunmaker in the world.

The company has pledged no longer to sell arms into warzones or to countries that violate corruption and democracy standards, including Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, or any African countries.

Israel? Really? Piss off H&K

Remember you are responsible for every round you fire

Via Bearing Arms

A Washington state man was sentenced to 8 and a half years in prison for manslaughter after he killed a neighbor while shooting at a car thief.  Tobin Panton, age 40, accidentally shot and killed 61-year-old Linda Green when he exited his home after noticing his Jeep leaving his driveway.

Tobin Panton, 40, of Bonney Lake in the Tacoma area, was sentenced last week in Pierce County Superior Court on one count of manslaughter in the first degree for the death of 61-year-old Linda Green.

“Instead of calling 911 he took matters into his own hands,” said Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Erika Nohavec. “He didn’t think of any of his neighbors and Linda Green lost her life that day.”

The incident, which occurred last November, happened just after Tobin was getting out of the shower and saw his Jeep leaving his driveway. Retrieving his .40-caliber Glock, Tobin fired at the departing vehicle from his porch until he ran out of ammunition. Pierce County deputies were called a brief time later to a home two blocks away from the man’s residence, where Green was found shot in the head in her sleep.

Detectives discovered a bullet hole in the window of Green’s home that faced Tobin’s porch and numerous “strike marks” on the front of her residence as well as her next-door neighbor’s home.

You shoot to stop the threat. ONLY to stop the threat to your life, or the lives of others.

Is Paul Ryan blocking national reciprocity?

Oh Republicans, Republicans, Republicans

Following the shooting of Rep. Steve Scalise at the hands of a deranged liberal terrorist, Rep. Thomas Massie introduced a bill for national reciprocity. This bill would make it so concealed carry license would be treated like marriage licenses or drivers licenses; a permit in one state would be recognized in every other state.

The bill, however, has stalled, and Massie points the finger for this squarely at Speaker of the House Paul Ryan.

Speaker Paul Ryan will not allow Congressional action on national concealed carry reciprocity to move bills forward, Rep. Thomas Massie told host Mark Walters Thursday on Armed American Radio.  The reason given is Ryan thinks the timing isn’t right to consider H.R. 2909, the D.C. Personal Protection Reciprocity Act, a supplement to state reciprocity provisions of H.R. 38.

…

“We’ve got over 80 cosponsors at this point,” Massie told Walters when asked the status of his bill, which is currently and procedurally in the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform because Congress has oversight responsibility for Washington D.C. He’s “pressing for a hearing on it.”

“Why haven’t we seen movement over either 38 or 2909 since the horrific events in Virginia?” Walters asked, noting the Republicans control the House and the Senate and both Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell appear to be blocking bills advancing the right to keep and bear arms.

“You know what?” Massie replied, “The Speaker told me he didn’t think the timing was right. And I think this is the exact timing to bring this bill

Dear Speaker Ryan, do your job, screw timing, screw optics, and screw Leftists who will oppose this legislation! Speaker Ryan LEAD!

Now for news the lamester media will not bring you because guns are always bad

The main stream media loves ratings never forget that. But they also love protecting left-wing narratives. So, people defending themselves with firearms is covered up. So I try to fill y’all in on stories like this

Via Washington Times:

Once again, it’s the Second Amendment to the rescue.

A mass stabber cutting into three victims in Seminole, Florida, was apparently stopped dead in his tracks when his fourth target pulled out a gun.

Don’t expect this story to make CNN headlines.

Conversely, had the stabber been a gunman, and particularly a gunman with a Facebook page filled with messages of Jesus and reposts of biblical sayings, this would be MSM’s story of the day.

As it is, Breitbart carried the news: “The incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman, 44-year-old Rosanna Lynn, struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.”

According to the St. Pete Patch, the suspect then fled and a 44-year-old man, Christopher McMann, tried to intervene, but ended up being stabbed himself. Then another “good Samaritan” tried to help — 31-year-old Travis Jones — but was stabbed in the abdomen.

That’s when a fourth witness jumped to the rescue.

Donald Rush, 40, saw the events as they unfolded and instead of running to tackle Watson, went to his vehicle instead — and took out his gun.

“[Rush] disarmed Watson and held him at gunpoint until deputies arrived,” the Patch reported.

Bravo! Of course stats show that hundreds of thousands of incidents of armed self-defense happen annually, but, again, the anti gun narrative must be protected at all costs.

Self-Defense Myths

Animal Magnetism has some common misconceptions about firearms and self-defense. He knows of what he speaks

Here is an example

Don’t ever fire a warning shot.

Daffy old Uncle Joe Biden’s advice on the topic notwithstanding, this is a bad idea.  For one thing, you may well be guilty of negligent discharge of a firearm.  But more to the point, if things are bad enough that you have produced a firearm to deter a threat, if you are called upon to fire your first shot should be center mass.  Shoot to stop the threat; a shot in the air does nothing to that end

Go read it all. Firearm ownership comes with tremendous responsibility. How you exercise that responsibility can mean life or death. 

Texas professor takes special care to illustrate his idiocy

Good Feaking Grief!

Geography Adjunct Charles Keith Smith wore a bulletproof vest and Army helmet to teach his summer school class on Aug. 1 as a visual statement of his opposition to the campus carry law as it went into effect in two-year colleges in Texas.

“This is me making a statement that I do not approve of it, and I feel threatened,” Smith said in an interview after his class, GEOG 1301, Physical Geography.

He said he borrowed the vest and helmet from his son who retired from the Army.

“In Texas, there has only been one active shooter on any college campus on Aug. 1, 1966, at 11 a.m.,” Smith said

Smith referred to the University of Texas at Austin tower shooting when Charles Whitman used a rifle to kill 15 people and wound 31.

Smith said that with the campus carry law, he does not know who has guns and worries that the mental state of a student who carries a gun might increase the risk of a shooting.

There really are no words for this kind of stupid, but Erika Haas has a good retort to his stunt

Smith goes on to note that “a shooting can happen with or without the concealed carry. “But,” he says, “you have got the person who has the gun, and they do not have to drive home to get the gun or have time to think about it. They have a weapon on the spot. It is intimidating.”

Doesn’t Smith realize that if a student is that unstable, that if they’re going to become murderous over a grade or a chair, that that student certainly isn’t going to obey some rule that says gun aren’t allowed on campus?

Smith was right when he said a shooting can happen whether or not concealed carry is permitted on campus. The only difference is whether or not those being attacked have a way to defend themselves.

Sadly, such common sense is very uncommon among Leftists

Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

It was not a good day to be a bad guy. H/T Jenn Jacques of Bearing Arms

Waco Police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton said at 11:15 p.m. Saturday night, an armed robbery suspect wearing a ski mask walked into Tee’s Smoke Shop and demanded money at gunpoint.

Unfortunately for him, the employee behind the counter was armed, and defending his own life, drew his weapon and shot the suspect several times.

The employee’s swift defensive action caused the suspect to flee the scene, but police said he was later dropped off at Baylor Scott & White Hillcrest Medical Center by an unidentified, but obviously caring, friend.

 

Your Self-Defense Story of the Day

Armed citizen 1, abusive boyfriend 0

An armed security guard was in the right place at the right time last Thursday, selflessly saving his neighbor from a brutal attack.

Police were called to an apartment complex near the Meadows Mall on Mission Laguna Lane around 10 p.m. by the security guard who reported the shooting.

Las Vegas Now reports:

Investigators believe the dead man had been abusing his girlfriend for hours before the shooting.  They said the victim had obvious signs of abuse and was bleeding from her face.  They also believe the man had kicked down a door inside the couple’s apartment earlier Thursday.

Before the shooting, police believe the woman ran from her apartment and found a neighbor she knew in the parking lot. The woman’s long-time boyfriend apparently chased her and got into an argument with the neighbor.

“There was a verbal argument and there was some yelling,” said Metro homicide investigator, Lt. Dan McGrath.  “What I was told by the security guard was he told him to back up.  He told him to get back or he would get shot.”

Police said that during that confrontation, the neighbor fired one shot, hitting and killing the boyfriend.

Police did not release the identities of the persons involved in the incident, only specifying that the domestic abuse suspect was an African-American man in his 50’s who had a history of domestic violence with his girlfriend.

 

Your Self-Defense story of the Day

Jenn Jacques has the story

According to Chief Greg Jordan, a motel landlord was able to use his firearm to successfully stop a knife-wielding man advancing on him Saturday night.

The incident occurred at the Driftwood Motel in Oak Island, NC., a quiet beach town

“It’s so quiet and a family-friendly and a low-key place where you don’t expect any action or crime,” said beachgoer Elizabeth Finley, who heard the pair of gunshots.

Authorities say at approximately 11:15 p.m., 36-year-old Michael Christopher Auvil, who used to live at the motel, pulled a knife on the landlord during a verbal argument. Witnesses told police that as Auvil continued to advance, the landlord acted in self-defense; drawing his firearm, taking aim, and shooting his armed attacker.

Auvil was pronounced dead at the scene.

Over 16 million Americans now carry guns legally, Cult of Gun Control narratives hardest hit

I would add that given the growing number of states that allow permitless carry, the number is a bit higher. You can view the pdf here Bearing Arms provides some key highlights which eradicate certain false narratives about those who carry guns and the results of citizens carrying firearms

  • There are now over 16.3 million permit holders, a record 1.83 million increase in permits since last July.
  • Nationwide, 6.5% adults have a concealed handgun permit. Outside of California and New York, 8% of adults have a permit.
  • Permits for women and blacks are increasing much faster than they are for men and whites.
  • There are also significant differences in not only the number of permits issued but also who gets them when politicians have discretion in granting them.
    • Los Angeles County provides a vivid example of how women and Hispanics are given few permits when politicians decided who can defend themselves.
  • Concealed carry permit holders also continue to be stringently law-abiding.

In fact, Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn might benefit from learning that in spite of being overwhelmingly adherent to the law, permit holders are actually becoming even more law abiding! The percentage of permit holders who are charged or convicted of a felony has dropped from 0.0123 in 2015 to just 0.0092 percent in 2016.

So, more guns being bought, more people carrying firearms, and violent crime and homicide rates dropping, hmmmmm